Sales Tactics That Work: Adding Value Beyond The Bottle with Michele Fuller

The Payoff

Most sales pitches fail before they start — because the seller never actually mapped the client's world. In this episode, global sales strategist Michele Fuller (Ford, Coca-Cola, Danone — $150M+ in career sales) breaks down the framework that turns a transaction into a partnership: research before you pitch, map every stakeholder in the room, and become the "total partner" your client didn't know they needed. If you sell anything — a product, a service, or an idea — this is the recipe.

Sponsored by Wells Fargo and The UPS Foundation.

Transcript

Speaker 1: Cynthia Nevels 0:02

Welcome back to the payoff. I am Cynthia Nevills, your host and founder of the Payoff Podcast. I'm also the founder of Start Pivot Grow, which is the national accelerator that really focuses on helping small business owners pivot and grow their business. We also award grant dollars and invest in small businesses across the country as well, and offer the Capixai training program that is designed to help you design your growth strategy using and leveraging AI. And I am thrilled to be back for season two. Yay! Um, we had a fantastic season that was sponsored by the UPS Foundation, the Wells Fargo Foundation, and JP Morgan Chase. And we are thrilled that they came back and said, yes, we love what you were doing, and we get to bring the payoff podcast back again for season two. So welcome to episode one of season two. I have a wonderful and special guest with me today. Her name is Michelle Fuller, and she is a sales strategist extraordinaire that I had the privilege of meeting when I was with Goldman Sachs Black in Business three years ago, and I've recently learned so much about Michelle's career in sales as well as major corporations that she's closed major deals for, uh totaling over $150 million. I hope I have that number correct, and um deals for major corporations, including Danone, as well as Coca-Cola and others. And so it is a privilege to have you on the payoff podcast today, Michelle. Thank you so much. I appreciate the invite. Absolutely. I'm thrilled because you get to hear from an expert who's been there, done it, and we're not talking little change, we're talking big money uh for these major global companies, and to know that you are a woman who has found the secret to how you sell those deals. Because sometimes people think that sales is a males game, and then it's not. And so I'm really interested in learning from you and what you have built and developed and the recipe for success that you have followed and created for yourself as well. So thank you for being here. Thank you. Pleasure to be here. Absolutely. So talk to me about your role and how you got into sales. Tell me a little bit about the background first.

Guest: Michele Fuller 2:48

So the background is I was making a pivot uh out of college from journalism and uh minored in business. So I said, you know, I I need to be able to take care of myself. And journalism at the time wasn't going to do that with the low salaries. So I pivoted to business. Um, I decided that I would start with sales because um, you know, kind of randomly, I like engaging people. I didn't really want to sit in an office all the time. And I wanted to be able to um just interact with people. And also I felt like sales was a great foundation because you can't make money without the sales. So from my perspective, that was the starting point, a great starting point. And and also just thinking strategically, if you are tied to revenue, you can probably uh ensure that you're gonna have some job security, right? So versus being, you know, on the on the expense side of the ledger for a company. So um, so those are the reasons why I decided to go into sales. And um I initially just kind of leaned into uh the journalism side of asking questions because I figured, you know what? I there's a there may be a lot of things I don't know, and the only way I'm gonna find out is if I just ask. Um and later when uh I went through Coca-Cola's uh strategic sales program, um that's kind of what they talked about. So that was right up my alley around, you know, kind of naturally how I tended to engage. Um but then I learned some other things, you know, in terms of understanding people's business. So that's questioning, right? And then also the alignment, making sure that you're aligning to what the client needs or what their goals are and aspirations and really understanding how they make money. Um, because, you know, just as I was thinking with working for a company on the sales side, being close to the revenue, that I've deduced that the revenue piece is equally important for businesses. And so your ability to understand where the money's made, and if you can tap into that or align to that with your product or service, I felt like similarly you'd have a winning case to get the business. Um, and so while I learned some, you know, um strategic selling and consultative selling um, you know, um uh guidelines and and and um you know um uh premises around that, um, I sort of made it my own because I I saw some things in business uh that I didn't really like. You know, I saw people trying to push their own agenda, I saw people being very self-serving. I need to close this sale because I need to meet my objective, and I needed to meet my objective too. But I was started thinking more long term. And not only do I want to, I'm gonna have the same objective after this contract ends. So how do I, how do I position myself to keep the the contract so that when it becomes, when it's time to renew and renegotiate, they actually want me to stay and want to keep the business because they're getting uh a partnership behavior and they're getting a partner as opposed to uh a transactional, you know, uh supplier, if you will. So those were things that I really thought about um and really tried to position myself as a partner and not a selfish partner, but a partner, hey, what what do you need to win? Because a lot of times when you're in these negotiations, um everyone's like kind of hunkers down on their side and it trenches and where what they need. But a lot of times my discussion was what what is it that you need? What are you looking for? What are the top two or three things that you'd like to see in a partnership and rank them for me?

Speaker 1: Cynthia Nevels 6:42

I think we're gonna get a chance to really dive into that because those are skills that I think often our founders and our startup owners do not have. And one of the things I'm gonna step back a moment because one of the things that I realized and recognized when I used to work in Silicon Valley, I used to see a lot of succession plans centered around the development of salespeople who would then transition into the CEO role. It either was going to be the CFO, the COO, or the chief salesperson who would ultimately become the CEO of the company. I really want that to sit with our listeners and our viewers really quickly to understand the sales person, the top sales person in those corporations usually was put into a tract to eventually become the COO and then eventually the CEO of the company. Why? Because sales is so critical to the longevity and livelihood of the business, and so understanding how important that is and how many companies um transition their top salespeople into the key role in the company is really important. But the gap that exists after being in business for 25 years and seeing so many founders and entrepreneurs not understand the art of selling is where the rubber meets the road. It's where I see a major uh opportunity to help founders understand that you don't know how to sell and you haven't built an internal infrastructure to support your sales function. And if you can improve those things, you learn how to sell and the science behind it and develop an infrastructure that supports it, you could possibly see your revenue increase without it being painful or damn near killing you at the same time.

Guest: Michele Fuller 9:01

Yes.

Speaker 1: Cynthia Nevels 9:02

And so the fact that you were after college, you went into these areas, Ford and then Coca-Cola, where you were trained on the art of selling. And in particular, what spoke um really resonated with you was the utilization of your journalistic or your journalism skill of asking questions and being curious to integrating that into the strategies that you learn in those major global companies, and then crafting and creating this customized way of doing things paid off big time for you, and millions and millions of dollars closed for these global companies, to which now you get to do that for yourself as a business owner yourself, so you understand the mindset that the founders and entrepreneurs are in from both perspectives. And so let's talk a little bit about specifically the the sale, the consultative sales strategy. What does that really mean for those who don't understand that?

Guest: Michele Fuller 10:10

It's really about, let me say what it's not real quick, because I think that might help. So it's really not about trying to convince someone to buy your product initially, right? Because honestly, if you're cons if you if it's consultative, it's not pushing an agenda, right? It's it's really about aligning, as I just said a few minutes ago. So it's it's consultative selling is all about, again, understanding what the client, understanding their business, really identifying where they may be having challenges or what some opportunities are in the industry that they're in or within their business. You know, maybe they're having operational challenges. And that's something that you might be able to help them with, even if it's not directly related, even making a contact in another with someone who can help them is about a partnership, right? And so, but really digging deep into that business and under and getting a better understanding and then figuring out how can I help them, not only with what I'm based on what I'm selling, but is there a broader way that I could position myself as a partner? Because that part, that trusted partner dynamic is what will sustain you typically. Now, just being realistic, sometimes you're dealing with somebody who's transactional. And sometimes they want to try to drive you to that trans, keep you in that transactional phase. And even when that happens, you have to try to push through if you can and show them that listen, I anyone can do this and I can do that. But based on what you told me, this is a goal you could that you're trying to reach. And I think I can help you with that too, right? So I can do this, but I think I'd love to help you reach that goal. And sometimes you can disarm people when they're when even they're approaching it that way, right? Um, and also sometimes it's about personal wins for them. And if they, you know, it's not always about the company. It's like, hey, I'm trying to get promoted. And if I can get you or your company to help me with this, that looks good on my performance. And so it's sometimes it's about that too. But understanding having those conversations, you know, conversations can be helpful. What's the company's goal? But also what's your goal? Where do you see yourself? You know, you have a family, you have, you know, what what where do you want to go with this company? Well, eventually I want to be CFO or whatever. Okay, well then what how do you get there? Right. And so you might be able to figure out a way to give them a win in their role that will make them look good and maybe help them with their selling, you know, internally, right? So there's a there's a lot of different nuances, but having conversations with people, even mastering the art of small talk, you know, and knowing that, hey, I know you have a family and I know they're important to you, and I know you're concerned about sending them to college. And so what will I if I get this promotion, you know, that'll help, right? So there's all these things that can go into the dialogue, but it needs to be organic, you know. That's the other thing. It needs to, it doesn't need to sound and feel forced. Um, but I find that if you are really focusing on them more than yourself, more often than not, you'll get what you want and you may get more. You may actually get more.

Speaker 1: Cynthia Nevels 14:03

Yeah. So I love that. And I mean, so one of the things that I see, smaller businesses in particular who really lean heavily into digital sales, meaning digital media sales, is that highly transactional. It is I have a product, B product, C product to sale, here's my price, or here's my discount, here's my code, get it now. It's very, very, very transactional. And what I've been doing lately in working with um clients is to help them start from a value points and value benefits perspective. And but if you've never gone through that exercise to understand how do you identify what those value points and benefits are to the solution that you're bringing to the table, and then crafting what you call an engagement plan centered around that, then next figuring out how am I going to collect all of this pertinent market research data that I need on this target, this potential account, in order for me to show up authentically versus transactionally, because the companies who do that really well, they skyrocket when it comes to sales because the target doesn't feel like it's transactional. They feel like, oh, they read my mind or someone's on my phone and put this information into Meta and now it's popping up everywhere. No, this is all happening on purpose. It's not by accident.

Guest: Michele Fuller 15:41

Absolutely. Yeah, and I, you know, a lot of times, again, it's it's just asking questions and and and you know, sometimes I've I've had people say in trainings that I've facilitated, I don't know what you say to the client. Like when I well, I had a young lady say she was a new salesperson, and she says, I don't, I don't even know how to approach the meeting, you know, and I said, you know what? Interestingly enough, I said, think about what you don't know. What don't you know about them? And just start asking some questions. Tell me about like what's your biggest account? What's your largest account? Who's driving the revenue for you? Where are you, what's your goal this year? How do you think you're gonna get there? You know, just simple things. What's your personal goal for your team? Where are you struggling, or where is your team struggling, or just start asking some questions and some things will start to open up. You'll start to see, hey, we we can help them with that. Or, hey, I didn't know that. I have an idea around that, but you know you won't know if you don't ask. And just starting with questions that are prepared, you know, prepare some questions, don't go away cold. Um I I always tell people when I'm when I'm doing you know, sales trainings that, you know, it it should the the meeting should come across conversational and relaxed but professional. But it also should it should feel organic. But believe me, it needs to be well planned and well thought out on your side, but it should come across very comfortable and just organic. It's okay to have some questions there to say refer to, it's fine. But if you ask the right questions and if you have a plan for the meeting, I need to know where they make their money. I need to know what is their goal for this year. These are things I want to walk out of that meeting with. And then, or what else I need to know who else is making the decision. Right? Yes, and you know, and you have to think about it, you know, you don't want to say, are you making the decision or who else? But the question you could ask is how are decisions made within your organization? Like, is there a uh right? And or within this department, how do you go from you know a product that you're considering to actually bringing it in? What does that process look like? Or how do you make uh decisions on your services? Well, we bring someone in, we interview who's the we, if you don't mind me asking, me and Mike Smith and Lisa Jones. Oh, I've not met them. Would you be open to making an introduction? Maybe they can join us at our next meeting. Now you have a sense of who these other players are, but it doesn't sound like you know, I'm like interrogating you. It's very casual. But my intention in the meeting was to walk away with with the names and an introduction of any other people involved in the process. And what is the process? So it it it shouldn't be this like, I have a list, here's what I want to know. It's but now I if that was my plan and I asked that question very casually, how do you how are decisions made? Now they tell they're gonna tell you, and now you have the information that you need to now start positioning. Does that make sense?

Speaker 1: Cynthia Nevels 19:34

100%. I was actually thinking about uh an experience that I just had at the beginning of the year, whereas um I wanted to re renew our relationship with a major donor who supports our accelerator. Yes. And my approach when I'm speaking with people is always to ask them, what are your goals for the year?

Guest: Michele Fuller 20:00

Right.

Speaker 1: Cynthia Nevels 20:00

What are you trying to accomplish? It's not, even though these are grant applications to support our economic development initiative, I could go in and say, hey, we'd love for you to renew the grant for another year. And here's what we've accomplished. That angle is all about me. But when I come to them and have already given the impact report, and I come to them and I say, What's your objective and goals? Because I've seen that you've had layoffs and you have experienced some operational challenges, and you have team members who are no longer with you, but you still have some market goals that have that have been set. What are those? And do you fit in what you need to accomplish? Immediately got the request to renew a week later, whereas it would have taken three months.

Guest: Michele Fuller 20:59

Yeah. So absolutely. And and also even when you are having the conversations initially, and you know you're you're successful in getting the grant or getting them to support it, you could even ask, um, what what are some of the metrics that you need to see or that you want to see that are required for of your organization to continue supporting us? Well, we look at these metrics. Now you've got the metrics at the beginning of the process. And so now you can start stewarding back those those metrics. Just want to let you know, here's where we are. We're tracking extremely well against these metrics that you're looking at. When you do, if even if you're doing that, by the time you know you get to the point where you want to renew, they already, they already know where you stand. They already know that you're hitting the metrics that are important to them. Because you've been stewarding it along the way. Right. Yes. And so then it's it's a that you you increase your chances of getting it versus I didn't ask and I don't know. And now I'm looking at this, and they're telling me, well, we can't continue. And I didn't even know it was coming. Because most organizations have metrics that they have to meet. And so within the category that you're in, understanding where you or your business and your product or service, where it, where, how it helps them and and and what those numbers look like or what the parameters need to be will help you. Because if we're not meeting those parameters, guys, we got to step it up because we don't want to wait until the end for them to tell us no. We want to make sure that we're meeting them, but you won't know if you don't ask.

Speaker 1: Cynthia Nevels 22:51

Very true. So let's talk about these five key elements to your recipe for success, the framework that you have. And one of the things that of part of this framework is stop pitching, which I find really, really interesting because people teach people that they should prepare a pitch, so to speak, to get in the room. But um, you say no, stop pitching. Let's talk about those five elements.

Guest: Michele Fuller 23:20

So the first thing, again, is go and when you when you start the process, you need to be as inquisitive, very inquisitive. You need to really think through what is it that I don't know, right? And what do I need to know? You know, sometimes you may not know that you need to know that, but there's a couple of things that you definitely want to find out is what are their goals, like you said, goals or challenges, right? Um, you also want to understand who the decision makers are. And that may come over time, you know, because there's different and and influencers. Yes. Because someone may not be a decision maker, but they could be an influencer, right? On the, well, you know, I don't know about that. Uh I got some reservations. And now, well, Steve has reservations, so maybe we'll hold off. Yes. Right? But if I cover off on Steve, Steve, what are your reservations? It's XYZ. Well, let me show you how we do that. Is that something that will meet your needs, or kind of where do you need to be before? And then let me show you. So then when I say, Steve, what do you think? You know, hey, Michelle spoke to me. She showed me where those opportunities are. I'm comfortable with moving forward. But had I not asked that question, that person could have blocked everything. And so a lot of times people are just so focused on one piece of it. So those influencers and those decision makers and knowing who they are and understanding everybody's individual dynamic and addressing it makes it easier to close that deal. And it's not always the top person. Yeah, you know, the top person, they don't have time always to get into the minutiae. So they will ask their team, hey, what do you think? And if you've never talked to the team, that's you are it's an easy no.

Speaker 1: Cynthia Nevels 25:17

Yeah.

Guest: Michele Fuller 25:18

So understanding that part of it, understanding the client's journey, right? And where they are in their journey versus where they want to be, you know, and starting to think through how I can help them and be a total partner in that, you know. Um, the pitching piece is very simple. Um, pitching for me denotes I'm gonna convince you to do what I want you to do, and I'm gonna come up with what I think is the best approach to do that, not knowing what interests you or what's important to you. I'm just gonna start talking about the things that I think are important because that those are the things that make me look good. Regardless of what that means to the person you're trying to sell to. Yeah. That's the part that I don't like about pitching. I I frankly think it sets you up for failure.

Speaker 1: Cynthia Nevels 26:11

Okay.

Guest: Michele Fuller 26:12

Because you're never gonna convince me to buy something just because you want me to buy it. You have a better chance of getting me to buy something if you understand what I need, what I'm trying to accomplish, and you tap into that and you align to that, then I'm I'm I'm interested. You got my ear. But if you're just talking, and I say, I just it's not what I I don't want any of that.

Speaker 1: Cynthia Nevels 26:35

Yeah. So, in other words, pitching is um you putting your thoughts into what you want them to have and what you want them to do, versus shut it, shut up and listen and actually revert regurgitate the value points and the benefits that actually align with the solution that they're looking for. Yes. There's a difference between the two. And so I want to make sure that our listeners and viewers really understand that yes, pitching is a part of selling, but the method and the information that you are um sharing and communicating, it's the how you do it that really matters.

Guest: Michele Fuller 27:21

It does because, you know, certainly when I've had to, when I've been negotiating contracts, I have to give the client a proposal at some point, right? But when I go in, I have already done the homework. And I would have asked, just as I said a few minutes ago, because I've had clients say, give me a proposal. And I would say to them, first of all, thank you for the opportunity that you want that you're even considering working with me and my organization. But I have a bit of a I have a protocol that I ask that you indulge me in if you're okay with that. And that is if you could give me 30 minutes of your time so that we can talk through what you'd like to see in a proposal. What are what is your objective? What are the top three things that you want to see in a proposal and rank them?

Speaker 1: Cynthia Nevels 28:11

Yeah.

Guest: Michele Fuller 28:12

And the reason I and I tell them, the reason I'm asking you to rank them is because I'll be honest with you, I may not be able to give you everything, but I'll try to give you number one and number two. I will focus on one and number two. I might have to say, can't give you three, but if I know what three is, then I'll know that okay, that's that's not as high on the totem pole. But I gotta get you number one. So if I don't know what those things are, and I decide that number three is number is the best one, and you're like, yeah, well, I could have done without that, right?

Speaker 1: Cynthia Nevels 28:43

Yeah.

Guest: Michele Fuller 28:44

And that's happened. And so when I come back in, I will say, you told me that these, this is one, two, and three. I can give you one and two, but I three is gonna be tougher. I'm gonna have to kind of back down from that. Or I can give you number three, but it's gonna have to come from another budget. Can we put it under marketing? Because I have more latitude there, right? If we call it marketing, call it marketing. So then, you know, and now by the so we're in the proposal. Oh, yeah, that's exactly what I'm looking for. Or could you change that a little bit? I number one is good, but we have an accounting dynamic with that piece. Can you just change that element? Now everybody's engaged. There's no, I don't want that. It's how can we how can we adjust it so it so it's working even better? But everybody's invested because they see they're getting what they want. It's it's coming to fruition. We just may have to tweak a few things.

Speaker 1: Cynthia Nevels 29:49

I love this. Okay, so hopefully the listeners are are taking notes here. And so we because we have about a minute left, what I'd love to do is can you give me three main things, real short, that people can do to be the best partner that they can be with the target accounts that they want to land. How do you become a good partner?

Guest: Michele Fuller 30:16

You you ask questions, you think outside the box when you when they tell you some things, because sometimes you may say, Well, I don't do that. They need this, and I don't do that. Could you help them with a contact? You might know somebody who does do that, and you could say, Listen, I don't do that, but I know someone who does. Would would you be open to an introduction? That's what a partner looks like. Because that is not maybe doesn't have anything to do with what I do, but the fact that you made an introduction and they come back and say, hey, that was super helpful for me. Now I feel really good about you. I feel I trust you. And I want you to be successful because you wanted me to be successful even when it didn't benefit me.

Speaker 1: Cynthia Nevels 30:57

Yeah.

Guest: Michele Fuller 30:58

And those that's that's a partnership. That's not a transaction. Transaction says, I'm not gonna help you with that because that's not gonna help me. But that's very short-sighted because if they feel good about listen, this person went out of their way. They thought about what I needed, and it didn't have anything to do with them, they start to now they want you to win, right? And so that's so it's it's really thinking outside of the box sometimes, but you you won't be able to do that if you don't get. I mean, but it really starts with those questions, and it starts with um being embracing a win-win mindset that I want you to win and I want to win too. And I feel like we can do that together. I don't want to win at your win-lose doesn't make the other side feel better. Even if they win and you lose, you're not feeling good. But how do we win together? Just like I made made up, like I probably should say, but some companies I work for, marketing came from a different budget, and it didn't, it didn't uh uh it wasn't on the balance sheet with with sales per se. And so I had a little flexibility there, you know, around well, we need to show this. Okay, well, what if I give you a marketing, some marketing activity that helps generate that and it's included in the agreement, and the value of it would be the value that would be over here, but it's just called marketing. Oh, we can do that, okay. Love that on your side, it's the same, it's one pot from the organization, yeah, but it's called marketing, right? Yeah, so it's just a different name, but when you look at the overall value, the value is where you want it to be. So sometimes you just have to be creative and get there.

Speaker 1: Cynthia Nevels 32:53

So this is really critical to selling beyond the bottle because it wasn't about the water, bottled water, it wasn't about the cans of Coca-Cola, it was about the partnership and looking at the holistic need of the decision maker and seeing how can I be of value holistically to help you achieve what you want to achieve, and then return you'll sign the contract with me and we both win. Essentially, that's what we're saying.

Guest: Michele Fuller 33:24

Essentially, that's what we're saying. But a lot of times I think where people struggle is they're really tapped into what they want and they don't care. Oh, I don't do that, I don't care about that. But if you know, then I start to think about well, how can I how can I support them on that side, even when it doesn't benefit me directly? But what they don't realize because it's short-sighted is that if I help them win, they're going to want me to win.

Speaker 1: Cynthia Nevels 33:49

Yeah.

Guest: Michele Fuller 33:50

You know, and I've had situations where clients have said, this isn't the most lucrative deal I have on the table, but I really want to work with you because you really care about our business. And while I could get a short-term win with this other company, I don't feel like they're thinking about us. I think they're just kind of throwing money at us. And I don't feel like I'm getting, I'm gonna get that total partnership because there's other things that we want to do. And you've demonstrated that you're open to helping us with that or they haven't. Sometimes everything isn't about money, believe it or not. Right. You know, even in your personal life, it's not always about money, it's about the value. And oftentimes people will pay more for value. Yes. Right? So that's the thing, you don't it doesn't always have to be the cheapest if the value, if you're creating the value. And I think that's that's another, I guess, nugget that I would share. If you think about why you buy certain things, you know, some people buy a Gucci bag because they think it makes them look good and the value is looking good, right? I think it's a better purse, yes, right? And it's more expensive than others, but it's the value that it brings to that person, and it's sort of the same concept, and people will find the money, even when they can't afford it. Because they're so fixated on that value that it brings to them, makes me look good. People think I I'm I'm you know, I'm I I have money, or people think I I got it going on. And it but it's about the value, and if you create that, sometimes people will pay more for it.

Speaker 1: Cynthia Nevels 35:34

You know, that's another gem. And real quick, and I hope that the listeners and viewers understand is that if you can pinpoint what's most important to that company, operation, individual, department, whomever, if you can really pinpoint what really is going to make them feel good about this transaction and doing business with you, and you can uh communicate that effectively and show them what they would look like after the sale, it usually closes the deal much faster. Um I love everything that you've shared, but real quick, how can people learn more about you, Michelle, and your offerings and your consultative strategies and how you help large, mid, medium, and small companies um do better?

Guest: Michele Fuller 36:27

So my um my business is called Minerva Global Business Solutions because I do work with clients globally. Um and my email, I mean not my email, my uh website is Minerva M-I-N-E-R-V-A-G-B-S dot com. Minerva G B S dot com. You can reach out to me there and schedule some time with me and we can we can chat. And it also will show you some of the things that I do. Um, and we can talk further because I'm not limited to that. So thank you.

Speaker 1: Cynthia Nevels 36:59

I love that. You can also find Michelle Fuller on LinkedIn as well. If you follow me on LinkedIn, you will see a link to her profile, and you can connect with her and engage with her there as well as the website. But Michelle is one of the best in the industry. She will be, you will be attending the uh global summit, or excuse me, the growth tech summit that we're hosting in partnership with the UPS Foundation and Wells Fargo in October. And we are going to bring a wonderful panel of speakers, and Michelle will be there live and in person.

Guest: Michele Fuller 37:38

Thank you.

Speaker 1: Cynthia Nevels 37:39

You're welcome. I am thrilled that we were able to talk a little bit more in depth about the art of selling. And I hope that folks really took some great notes. There is a science to this, and I want our small businesses to improve how they sell internally and build their infrastructure in order for them to close more deals and not be as transactional.

Guest: Michele Fuller 38:05

Absolutely.

Speaker 1: Cynthia Nevels 38:06

That's awesome. Thank you so much for joining me on the pot the payoff podcast. I appreciate you being here today, Michelle. Thank you so much.